Khodorkovsky — RBC: "Irremovable government is bad not because of Putin"

The former head of Yukos, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, is the defendant in the newly discovered case of the murder of the mayor of Nefteyugansk. In an interview with RBC, he spoke about the new claims of investigators and training of politicians independent from the Kremlin.
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"I'm not able to guarantee the safety of the people"

- How do you react to what you initially suspected of tax evasion, fraud and then, and then - in the murder, and now - to treason (see help "Khodorkovsky to freedom.")?

- This is what to cook, can hardly be expected that they will step back. Go on the rise, work on the audience. They have this audience - one person.

- Still, what is explained by the appearance of new cases now?

- The team has been given at the beginning of the summer. group, coordinated by the Federal Security Service was formed, there almost all the agencies involved. Why now - just kick gave the performers. We even had a good laugh with your colleagues, the people completely forgot how to work even documents correctly as follows: first, a document sent to summon for interrogation as an accused, then remembered - and sent the document call for arraignment. Everything was done in a hurry.

- Do not harm your activity in Russia, the situation remains Platon Lebedev and Alexey Pichugin's sitting (see help "Yukos case & raqu.o;)? Do you keep in touch with them? Do keep in touch with Leonid Nevzlin?

- Coming out of prison, I immediately met with Leonid, and with his other colleagues in Yukos. He told them of his plans, he said that I do not plan to return to a business career, I do not plan to engage in asset recovery. Not because I'm there I'm afraid of something or someone that once promised. The available resource is enough for me to meet the challenges that are in front of me. And spend time finding new resources, I do not need. Especially that colleagues with this problem, as I see it, do a good job.

I sometimes call up Platon Leonidovich, I naturally call and convey my deep respect mum Alexey Pichugin and - through it - to Alexei. I did not know him seriously to all that has happened, after all, was the man on the fourth level of government. But this was a man with a capital letter. Life sentence - it's scary, believe me. Man sitting in these conditions for 12 years and still retains courage. All that depends on me for his release, I was willing to do. Tragically, today there is honest people in the security services, ready to come to the president and say: Vladimir Vladimirovich, you lied ...

- How do you protect the participants of the project "Open Russia" against the attacks of the authorities and security services? Do you give them some security guarantees?

- I have been asked this question many times. My position is that I am not able in the current situation, but I think that no one can guarantee the safety of people involved in public activities of the opposition in Russia. From this activity, embarking on this path, people are taking on serious risks. Naturally, they can rely on some advantage in the future, when regime change.

That I promise - no one will forget. If people get in prison, about them will never forget and never will allow the current government to forget about them. This does, in fact, the project "Advocacy". But promise people something more, some great defense - it is simply impossible.

Yes, it's risks. I took these risks in 2003, when he returned to Russia when I was warned that my villageadyat. It cost me 10 years in prison.

- What do you think the story of the poisoning of Vladimir Kara-Murza?

- I have no proof that this was a deliberate poisoning. But what I do not have this evidence does not mean that it was not. I am responsible for my words. And so, when this evidence I will, I will say this on his own behalf. Now I suppose that if Vladimir found it necessary to declare his own name on the poisoning, it has to this there are sufficient grounds.

- Do you think that the persecution is still threatened by people associated with you and sympathetic to you, such as the continuation of "business experts"?

- In Russia - the constant changes in legislation and law enforcement practice in the direction of further repression. From the point of view of the law experts should not threaten anything. But who will go crazy tomorrow, what law or practice what will happen tomorrow, neither I, nor you, I think, not Putin himself can not predict.

What happens if the situation in the country will develop as it develops now? Over the past couple of years have seen a paix life level by 20% and significantly associated with these social tensions. There are at least two of the war on the country's periphery. And now more and more began to talk about Afghanistan. Here are some we do not have enough third war! In this situation, I do not know what could be tomorrow.

- Do you believe in the willingness and desire of the Russian authorities to investigate until the end of the killing of Boris Nemtsov?

- For me personally, there is little clarity in order, an order has been made at any level. I've already talked about it. I think in this case I can only refer to its own opinion, that this inner circle of Ramzan Kadyrov. The investigation established ceiling, the ceiling - [fighter of the Chechen battalion "North" Ruslan] Geremeev. They attract Geremeeva, will not attract - in this case it is a question, as I understand it, haggling and debate. As it turned out, Putin, for whom the death of Nemtsov 100 meters from the Kremlin was an unpleasant surprise, even in this situation is not ready to go out to seriously undermine the position of the pillars of his regime as Kadyrov. It is his political decision to him for him and carry otvebility.

- Do you plan to take out of his father's Russia?

- It would be strange to say that I'm not afraid of him. But my father, despite the fact that he was already over 80, people are very hard, and very independent. And decisions about their whereabouts and in respect of their own destiny, he takes himself. I can not impose it. I can it's just something to advise, and he refers to my advice as we often treat the advice of their children.

- Will you yourself ask for political asylum, for example in the UK?

- It's a deeply personal matter. It would be strange if I had not meditated over it. But I have so far is not ready to make the matter public domain.

- Can a criminal prosecution in Russia and, possibly, internationally wanted hinder your movements around the world? Could this hinder your financial activities, such as to jeopardize the funding of "Open Russia"?

- What is today discussing the Investigative Committee, they discuss the past 12 years. President Putin spoke publicly about this onat least three times over the years. When I was released from prison, all of these items have been on the table. Nothing new has come.

From this perspective, any new problems with movement, no new funding problems, I do not guess. But if our government will behave as it behaves today - and in the economic sphere, and in foreign policy, that funding problems are likely to be with her. As, however, and with the movement of the world problems.

The Yukos affair

In 2003, Yukos Oil Company conducted a tax audit, the results of which were assessed large fines and penalties in the Russian history. The total amount of claims for the period 2000-2003 amounted to 582 billion rubles, while taking into account the claims to subsidiaries -. 703 billion rubles. In 2007 the company went bankrupt.

Also, in 2003 it was instituted the first criminal case of fraud and tax evasion, which have become defendants in Yukos head Mikhail Khodorkovsky and the chairman of the board of directors of the company "Menatep", the main shareholder of Yukos, Platon Lebedev, in the same year placed under arrest. In 2005, Khodorkovsky and Lebedev Prigovorili to eight years in prison.

Defendants in a separate criminal case in 2003, became the head of the internal economic security department of YUKOS Aleksey Pichugin: he was accused of several murders committed in 1998-2002. In 2007, Pichugin was sentenced to life imprisonment.

In 2006, against Lebedev and Khodorkovsky filed a new case. They were charged with the legalization of money obtained by criminal means. In 2010, two businessmen were sentenced to 14 years in prison including earlier served period, in 2011, the term was reduced to 13 years, and in 2012 - up to 11 years.

In 2013, Khodorkovsky was pardoned by presidential decree. In 2014, the Supreme Court reduced the term to Lebedev already served.

In December 2015 it became known that Khodorkovsky who is in London, charged in absentia for the murder of the Nefteyugansk mayor Vladimir Petukhov (murder committed in 1998, and was mentioned in the Pichugin). A spokesman for Khodorkovsky Olga Pispanen stated that he did not intend to come to Russia for questioning. The defendant declared wanted.

"No doubt, Sechin has requested the consent of the Kremlin"

- I have no doubt that, when the decision to start this new saga, the main motivation was just a suit. That is trying to put pressure on shareholders to minimize their activity in terms of reclamation funds.

I am sure of this, because I know that during this time were numerous searches, questioning individuals associated with YUKOS. Again this is all renewed. I know what questions were asked, I know, by order of any legal consultants of our government was done. I must say that these legal advisors - if they know that on the basis of their consultations, mass human rights violations in Russia, or they pretend they do not know - take on the heavy burden of moral responsibility.

- At the end of March 2015 the former Yukos shareholders have signed a monetary settlement agreement with "Rosneft", abandoning the mutual claims and fixing the status quo.Do this decision justified, or is it YUKOS had to sue to the end, hoping to defend a few hundred million dollars?

- It's hard to say. To answer, was whether it makes sense to sue more or wiser it would be to conclude the agreement, it is necessary to be deeply immersed in the mechanics of these processes. It takes a long time to me, and so is not enough. And I believe that if my colleagues have taken such a decision, then they weighed him well.

- What do you think, why did "Rosneft" has gone to the world? It took the Kremlin whether consent to this deal?

- I have no doubt that [the head of "Rosneft" Igor] Sechin has requested the consent of the Kremlin in this matter. Because he knew that some of the money will go to those people who are exactly friends of the current government are not. Well, apparently, the alternative seemed to him and his head more unpleasant.

- Whether the world is possible by another dispute - between the group of GML, Yukos's largest shareholder, won a lawsuit for $ 50 billion, and the Russian Federation? Under what conditions do you meNIJ, the group agreed to reduce their demands? And under what conditions Russia can go for such negotiations?

- I told you that for me personally in this matter, there is only one problem - it is a problem of the hostage. And on what conditions are ready or willing to make those Yukos shareholders who they are today, I do not know, I'm not a shareholder of Yukos in 2004.

I am not of any beneficiary, either party in this case. I have nothing to ask because I do not want to know too much - not to become an additional point of doubt in the matter, who, what and with whom to negotiate.

- In early November, one of the trusts created to protect the assets of YUKOS shareholders, announced the beginning of distribution of funds in favor of the former owners of the oil company. You will get, will not participate in the distribution of funds?

- I gave Leonid Nevzlin not only control in 2004 on the package of YUKOS, which belonged to "Menatep Group", but also gave his personal bag. This was done because we thought with colleagues, I can be that weak pointoh, in which the Russian government can withdraw these shares and log in as one of the parties in the process. Therefore, we have agreed with my partners that I sell them to these shares.

The situation was, of course, difficult from a financial point of view and for them and for me. But we came to an understanding on that, which means they are willing to pay me for this package. And I was completely arranged. And no review of these arrangements after my release from jail is not required.

Khodorkovsky is on the loose

Mikhail Khodorkovsky freed by presidential decree 20 December 2013. The escort accompanied him to St. Petersburg Pulkovo Airport. There he waited for a private jet provided by the former Foreign Minister of Germany Hans-Dietrich Genscher. This plane Khodorkovsky flew to Germany. December 22 at a press conference in Berlin Khodorkovsky said that the future is not going to engage in business and politics. According to the businessman, he decided to devote himself to public activities, including assistance to political prisoners.

By political activity Khodorkovsky back in March 2014, when the heighttupil criticized the Russian government in Kiev. In September 2014 at the Paris festival, dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the newspaper Le Monde, Khodorkovsky has declared its readiness to become president of Russia. According to him, he could have "a constitutional reform, which is mainly in the redistribution of presidential power in favor of the Court, the Parliament and civil society."

In December 2015, when living in London Khodorkovsky was charged in absentia in the case of a perfect murder in 1998, he said that the days are numbered and the Putin regime in Russia is inevitable "peaceful revolution." In response, the Russian Prosecutor General's Office announced that it is in these words, "signs of public appeals to violent change of the constitutional order." The prosecutor's office asked the Investigative Committee to decide whether to institute the appropriate proceedings.

"We provide for themselves casting"

- Who are the current elite - businessmen, officials, politicians - you could call its allies, or at least like-minded people? Who do keep in touch?

- You know perfectly well that the titlesfive people with whom I interact directly with my hand it would be incorrect. Because these people could be additional problems. If they want, they call themselves.

But, without a doubt, today there are all sorts of people in the Russian political and economic elite, including completely freezed, who are trying to live as the last day - using all its political resources to catch the last. This remarkable example of the last days - Rotenberg. Here too, it would seem, where you these penny (includes management fees "Plato" - the new system for levying tolls -. RBC) against the background of your income. But no, do not give up. Like a shark - if clung to, then do not let go, can suffocate if the piece was too big, but not shove back in the state.

But there are also quite normal, adequate people, who at that situation would work well in a competitive, open, democratic society. Among them are also those people who are not for me so very closeThey are at different times in different ways treated me: it Kudrin, Gref, Ulyukayev said the same, the same Nabiullina. This is, in general, the people with whom we have worked fine, they are quite competitive.

And these people still missing in the business. Here we have recently seen the appearance of one of the entrepreneurs who addressed a clear and bitter words (it implies Dmitry Potapenko at the Moscow Economic Forum 8 December -. RBC). And what frightened and admiring the reaction it has caused in society, it indicates that society is, of course, deeply hurt.

- Is it possible to still some modernization from above, a change in the policy model of the economy? Who can become a mouthpiece and a conductor of the modernization in the near future? Do you rule out return to power, such as Alexei Kudrin?

- In terms of the ability of Alexei Leonidovich perform modernization works in its field - it is, undoubtedly, can perform. He is a man quite clear, broad, but, nevertheless, not a comprehensive competence. He is a wonderful state employees, it has been recognized as a remarkable Treasurer, Minister of Finclient connections. But he must have a very strong political support for his reforms.

Provide him the political support for the current government is not ready. Because - he said it - the country has gone deep into the problem, the degradation of the control system.

It is impossible to carry out economic reform without political reform. All political reforms will rest in the risk for the current government. This causes a cold sweat at the current leadership of the country, so that, unfortunately, the desire and the possibility of Mr. Kudrin would not be realized.

- After it became known about the resumption of the criminal case against you, you are called a press conference and stated that the only way to change the Russian authorities - it is a revolution. Does this mean that you do not intend in any way to participate in elections, to support any candidates for the State Duma elections in 2016?

- I said that the power of today's legislative field in a natural way to change it is impossible. This emerged legislative field, the practice of its application, that change that power legally Unableozhno.

You may not like ten times the "United Russia", you may not like a hundred times the Liberal Democratic Party, but you can not do anything - to choose someone real alternatively you just will not allow.

This means that a change of power can take place only with the release of the now existing legal framework and the practice of law. The change of power from going beyond the limits of legislation called revolution. That's why I spoke about it as inevitable.

But in order for the results of the revolution we have a properly functioning democratic society, the people who will replace the need to have a political experience of their society should know. The only way to prepare these people - it's part in the elections, which, as I said, the government can not change, but to gain political experience possible. And for exactly this task orientated our project "Open Elections".

- Is it true that you are financially and organizationally helped the campaign Parnassus in Kostroma? What was your help, about what the amounts involved and whether you are satisfied with the results of this campaign?
- We participated in the election in Kostroma. How, by the way, and in Novosibirsk. We are engaged in the supervision of Kostroma in several areas. In the Novosibirsk region - Berdsk.

The second part of the problem, we decided, was collecting signatures in Kostroma. And, as it has been surprisingly been registered signature. Here, in fact, those functions that we perform. For me it was important as a break-in team - see how it works live in the present situation. I think I got a serious experience in 2016 will be used.

- Who besides Parnassus can get your support - moral and financial? Already on the participation in the campaign for the nomination to the State Duma in 2016 said some opposition politicians. Do you think that some alternatively minded people in Parliament can make a difference?

- We will not be financially involved in the election campaign Parnassus. That they should not, and we do not need. Our goal, as I said, to find a new person to find those people who are able to show the people themselves as an alternative to, and find wateredmatic experience. We are now conducting for himself casting themselves. We are looking for people who share our beliefs. And that would have support in their regions, in their polling stations.

It does not matter whether these people will be held in the State Duma. It is important that they showed themselves as an alternative. It is important that they have proved to be the people who tomorrow will be able to run the country when the regime changes. And it certainly will change.

Therefore, we are talking about young people, but also, of course, not about the marginals. We believe that this problem is education in relation to society and to the potential political leaders. It is very important, it is necessary to invest.

"For me, any, apart from Putin, better"

- Who would you consider the ideal candidate for the presidency in 2018? Do you think winning and useful tactics "anyone, but would not Putin?"

- For me, non-replaceable power is not so bad that it is Putin. And because the entire control system in a society oriented to the tenure of power, destroys the country. For example, when we agree with the introduction of Sharia in Chechne order that they collected 104% of the votes. When we give people to plunder the budget is not so rich, because we expect that these people will remain loyal to the stage when problems arise. When we spend money, crazy money, the law enforcement system, while demanding that it did not reduce the level of crime in the country, and at the time of tough confrontation "H" when suddenly, God forbid, the government will begin to change. And it's going to get the money that otherwise would go to education, medicine.

For me, any, apart from Putin, it is better because it is subject to recall. Well, the ideal politician who could replace Putin - it should be a policy of the transition period. That is the man who is ready to leave, preparing conditions for the first after a long break of fair elections in the country. And leave forever. I now all the time, it adds, after the famous castling.

- It's been a year and a half as long as you do a community project "Open Russia". We are satisfied with the results? Assessed whether, as has already spent money on these projects?

& mdash; I can honestly say unhappy. Dissatisfied I that managed to do in two years. Everything comes with a large scratch than I expected. And the problem, of course, me. Because the skills that have developed in the business sector, they creaked with stress reformatted me under a different sector of the economy. A social activity - is also a sector of the economy, which, as we know, is called the third sector.

I think my business experience has enabled me now more or less understand how to do business in this very third sector. And now I can afford to increase investments in this direction. We are talking about millions of dollars, this is what I can afford myself.

Guides them to a few basic projects, which are interconnected, a common goal with them, as I said - help potential political elite, which would come after the change of the regime, to prove themselves and gain political experience. This project is "open choice", and the project in education, and projects associated with informing. Of course, nowhere on it does not get in our environment, implementing human rights protection project. And several projectsat. In general, I think that I now imagine exactly know how to move on.

- Is it possible the existence of a successful political project, independent of the will of the Kremlin?

- If we are talking about a cohort of economists Yegor Gaidar, then, in general, to a greater or lesser extent all these years remained in power. Because, in fact, what they are doing - to help this government to keep the economic situation. These are the people who know what is called saving. The current regime for 15 years on all saves, and then spends - to buy loyalty. So little to plunder. The more saved, the more you can loot. It is, in short, a task with which the remains of the economic team Gaidar cope.

If and when required still seriously develop the Russian economy come out of isolation, to seek its place in the international division of labor will require more and more people who are able to visionary, moreover, to see the place of the country is not today, and the next day - and move there. I have this position for a long time defended and continue to defend. I hThis illiberal abuse.

We have dirtied the whole terminology. And I have a feeling that it dirtied meaningful. Well, see for yourself. Called the party of Vladimir Zhirinovsky's Liberal Democratic - it allowed dirtied and the word "liberalism" and the word "democracy" at the same time. And now impossible to say just about anyone - the National Fascist Party, their real name. When we talk about the right, in the West - it is [the leader of the French party "National Front" Marine] Le Pen, and we have the right to call liberals.

Although I am personally most proud of being called a statesman. I believe that in order to promote the country in the global market, you need to consider the efforts on a national scale.

Yes, 50-60% of the economy, even 70% can razrulivat market. Current needs of people meets market forces largely better than some joint efforts. But where we have to be competitive - in the global market for serious, expensive, capital-intensive areas - here we need national efforts. Clearly, not Gosplan mode, but the mode in taxess preferences, support for academic research, moving in this direction, in the mode of creating the appropriate conditions for training. Here there are very serious problems that are worth solving in a different way than they are solved now.

My deep conviction that Russia's place in the international division of labor - is the production of unique and individual products. Why do we have spaceships are obtained and shirpotrebovsky cars - no? So rebuilt our mentality, it is possible, of course, break down, but then it will not we, as Germans, for example. Well, why is another Germany, it already is.

So, in order to create just such a unique product in the stream, it is absolutely not necessary, for example, that the education system, which was introduced today. Here are all exam - they teach people to assembly-line production. And come into sharp conflict with the mentality of the people and society.